So, after a conversation with Sharona, I have decided to post a follow-up, which will probably need a further follow-up from the less confrontational, more practical, and more mild-mannered of the two of us.
So, in preparing for this lil' post, I watched the video of the speech from the Oscar's Sharona referred to, read various statements that the church has put out (this was interesting) and reflected on several conversations I have had with people, whom I would love to call my friends, who I care deeply about, but the relationship feels strained and somewhat superficial. We fail to include each other in our most intimate and deepest circles of life and friendship. There is a consistent ebb and flow of going from no contact to a bit more contact, but never really regular heartfelt, bare your soul, dependence for the last breath of sanity contact. And therefore, despite my sincerity with them and more than likely their sincerity in a relationship with me, they are more likely my acquaintances, despite years of long relationships and emotion. I presume there are several reasons why they are not, which I hope to elaborate on, and hope that maybe this will spur thought as to how that reality can potentially change. Before I launch into my tirade....please be aware that these are my thoughts and not the thoughts of Sharona, the LDS church, your dog Sue, or the neighbor's uncle Frank.
Now, for all the mormons and non-mormons reading this (which I presume there are few.......of both), I should probably give a brief disclaimer/bias notification. 1. I am a mormon, and arguably an active mormon at that. 2. I am a very liberal mormon, but more likely than not, a fairly conservative member of society. 3. I am a very large (and often vocal) gay rights supporter. 4. I'm straight, which means there are things that I am sure I do not and can not identify with in non-straight communities, and 5. I'm single, which means that in many people's religious goggles, I shouldn't be treated very differently than gay men (or women for that matter) within the church.
So, homosexuality and the mormons is a huge topic, and I won't address even a small fraction of it. I'm not here to argue or comment on the religious topic of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, nor what the result is in the heavens after we die. Those topics are for people that wish for and/or have far greater insight, authority, and wisdom than myself. What I wish to address are the every day factors in our lives as we go to church that I assume and expect divide gays and mormons both within the walls of the church building and without.
For starters, I think it would be unfair to not point out the seemingly small yet relatively large steps the mormon church (or the church for short) has taken to change at a minimum its public relations standpoint in regards to gays, and some of me would argue along with it, its official and unofficial policies. While the church has not, nor do I suspect it will, change its stance in regards to homosexuality and eternal salvation, it has left certain practices (both documented and undocumented) and rhetoric. More and more the leaders are preaching acceptance of the individuals, rarely are they preaching change the individual (as indicated by the link I posted earlier), and even more rarely are they picking sides in relation to nurture vs. nature.
That being said, any time homosexuality and gay rights is brought up to mormon friends or related, our first response is to recite some scripture, explore passages from the proclamation on the family, or give some other explanation or opinion as to the eternal truths of life. However, what often escapes our thought process, our deliberations, and our exchanges, is are they accepted as people? what opportunities do they have in our community? do we understand the issues involved?
I know as a straight male that happens to be single, and a bit out of that sweet spot of happy mormon marriageville, I find interaction within the mormon community to be intimidating at best, unwelcome more often than not, and my views and opines discredited as common place (maybe that is a reflection of my uneducated and often gregarious mindset!). And if that is my initial feeling of acceptance as a fairly commandment abiding, church going, tithing paying, single male, with more theoretical concerns within the church than practical, I can only imagine the degree to which someone who is gay feels those exact feelings amplified exponentially, not withstanding the impressions, feelings, and receptions I do not experience and have no insight into.
And so the question is then begged, what can be done to make people feel as though they are "beloved children of god"? Let's get off of our high horses for a second. We all sin. We probably all know people that have had sex outside of the bonds of marriage, both gay and straight. Yet we definitely treat people that are gay much differently than we treat people that are straight and knockin boots on a saturday afternoon! We know people that steal (and oh my, maybe we have stolen a piece of gum back when we were kiddies), we know people that don't pay their tithing, we know people that smoke, we know people that drink, we know people that lie, we know people that cheat, and by all means, we may even know people that commit fraud, have shot someone, were in a motorcycle gang, whatever. Yet they come to church, and as long as they are straight, hip hip hooray, they have a hope of changin' their ways. If they are gay....have you read the proclamation on the family? Did you know that it is an abomination before god? Are we trying to convince ourselves or them?
The discussion and the exchange has to be what can we do different so that, in light of the gospel truths which mormons accept not changing, people that are gay can be happy, accepted, and integrated into a mormon community. I am not a big debater on the nature vs. nurture topic. I find that I have met people on both sides of that spectrum, for some I believe it is choice, and for others I believe it is their natural attraction.
Whether attraction can be changed over time or not, I have no idea, but I do know that it doesn't matter as to my approach, thought process, interaction with, or desire to be friends with people that are gay. As a matter of fact, probably to the chagrin of the church leadership, I have been known to go to gay bars (and non-attraction based ones all the same), I have a tendency to enjoy hanging out with friends of mine that are gay, bi-sexual, and straight, and yet no way in the world would I probably feel comfortable saying to a gay friend of mine.... "Hey, why don't you come hang out with me and a bunch of church members." Maybe I am selling them short, but if I am approached with trepidation (and I have been in my ward since I was a kid, and since returning have been here for 2 years), I can only imagine the responses to the question and answer....are you married? No, I'm gay, but I've been with my boy/girlfriend for the last (fill in time period here).
Reflect to your conversations with members of your ward, and think about how many conversations go beyond your kids, your spouse, who you are dating (if you are single...if you are married....shame on you! :) ), etc. Now, I'm not saying that those are bad things to think or talk about, but if someone around you is gay, how likely are they to feel that this particular conversation is one that they can participate in, feel welcomed in, or not feel in some way excluded? I know that with several members of my congregation, the majority of the conversations they have with me are, who am I dating? When am I getting married? and if there are big no's to both of those, what am I doing to change that! Oh how I love mormonism....and it really is its own ism!
So, how is my picture going? Have I painted a good one? I feel I may be short on colors, but I'm trying to do the best I can with this stupid pencil I have in my hand! ;)
I think this question begs a better discourse...it begs more introspection into biases, fears, and self-perceptions, it begs for honesty with ourselves and others, it begs for the consideration and contemplation to come up with better answers, because guess what honey, the current ones aren't cuttin' it.
Friday, February 27, 2009
Monday, February 23, 2009
A Touchy Subject
I know, I know. Some things are really hard to talk about. In fact, this subject is so sensitive I am very exclusive as to who I even DARE broach the subject with. It's especially a volatile subject when you're a mormon, talking to other mormons.
And now I deviate from my skirting of the issue. Why? Well, a few reasons. 1) I really would like to know how other people reconcile the issue. 2) I think it is such a LOUD issue at the moment and I would like the subject not to be so taboo for myself or other mormons. I would like to NOT be afraid to talk about it. 3) Not to mention, it could be a cool litmus test because even though I'm afraid to ask, I am incredibly curious to know what everybody thinks and how they deal with it, if they dare leave a comment.
I fear this topic because it makes waves. I fear this topic because people feel so strongly about it. I fear this topic because I know people whom I love very much stand very far from where I often find myself standing and I think they won't like me when they find out what I think. I fear this topic because I don't totally know what to do with it and I haven't resolved it all yet. I fear this topic because it is something I have had so many thoughts on that it may just be too big too put in a blog.
But I have battled this topic in my heart many times over. And it was, once again, repeatedly dangled in front of my unresolved heart, with an about-face, all this weekend. And I don't think it's going to go away.
Did anybody watch the Oscars last night? I was watching, admittedly, for the dresses. I don't think I saw any of the films that were nominated so I didn't have opinions about who should win(I haven't really had time to go out to the movies much this last year). But I was pleased to successfully get an eyeful of some GORGEOUS dresses. As the event when on, I noticed that I also got an earful of some gay rights activism. That, along with a few other reminders this weekend, spurred a conversation between my hubby and I.
Now, before I shock anyone who may not be aware, I am innately a moderately conservative person in my personal life choices. On the flipside of that, I am very free-loving and liberal, "with a live and let live" mentality in my more general views. It's just how I am. There are many genes I am missing. A few I've noticed: the gene that tells me to scream when I see a spider, the gene that tells me to coo at little babies and the gene that tells me to cringe when I see two people of the same sex kiss or hold hands. A lot of things don't phase me.
And so here we start. I am not innately appalled by homosexual behavior, as I know many people seem to be. It just doesn't come naturally to me and I could pretend to try to fit in with everyone, but that just makes me feel silly.
I say all of this so you can see from what context I come from and what my general approach is to things. I want to love everyone and get along with them, including homosexuals. I want to love them and I want them to love me. I am a people pleaser and a peace maker. However, this issue is not just about avoiding conflict for me. When pressed or compromised on something I feel is right or wrong, I will stand confidently in opposition to whoever.
It is more an issue with the classification of "gay" and then, once determining what it is, how you treat "gay". From my closest understanding of what LDS church leaders have said most recently in interviews with the media and other public statements about people who are gay, they don't deny that some people choose to be gay (which I think can be the case) nor do they deny that some people may innately have homosexual tendencies from more deep-rooted sources that do not constitute a decision but something more akin to a condition. The way they describe it makes me think of having some kind of handicap or disease, like down syndrome or missing an arm. It's more like a genetic mess-up. Then you have the homosexual community who says they are not a mess up. They are diversity. Just as there are different races among the human race there is different sexual orientation.
Innately, I find my heart much more willing to accept these people as diverse rather than messed up. And I really don't know for myself what the case is. This singular issue has been the cause of a divide between me and my religion widening and narrowing at various times, often influenced by how prevalent this ways on my mind and subsequently distances me from the church versus other parts of the gospel which I gain a stronger testimony of or know to be true which conversely buoy me closer.
Lately that divide has been smaller than ever. I have been excited about my testimony of the church. When I think of all the different ways my prayers have been answered , the blessings that have come from following church teachings, how my life has been looked over and how miracles have happened I can't help but be delighted to find myself the owner of my own personal testimony, stronger than I can every recall.
One thing that has since helped me reconcile the "gay" issue is that I really do believe the priesthood is inspired and the prophet is a prophet. So, before anything else, I believe I should have faith that what the brethren are telling me is true. I often hesitate when I think this thought because it's against my instincts. But I've been a life-long studier and practicer of the gospel and it's built up a lot of trust in me so far with how many times it's gotten things right. So, I'm taking a leap of faith on that. I, of course, also have a strong testimony in personal revelation. And while I have not yet received any enlightenment regarding this issue which I would consider conclusive, I believe that while I have faith in the brethren, it is something which I may also obtain my own personal testimony of. I don't have it yet, but I'm working on it.
So that's where I find myself on the issue of "what" is gay. But the issue doesn't stop there. You then go into how to deal with the issue of gay rights and gay family members and gay church members and the list goes on and on.
Back to the Oscars. Dustin Lance Black, the winner for "original screen play" for the movie, Milk, gave a very passionate acceptance speech, as he described how his mormon family had moved him from oppressive Utah to the haven of California and loved him. He went on to offer support and encouragement to homosexual individuals, telling them they are beautiful people with gifts and value and no less than anyone, even when religions and others tell them they are less. It sounded like he was trying to shame members of the LDS faith. And he clearly felt like he had been wronged. And I venture that he very well may have been wronged.
Having lived in Utah and seen the VW Beetles driving around with "a recovering mormon" bumper sticker with a rainbow next to it, worked amongst a lot of gay men who came from other mormon families who had abandoned the religion, often taking their families with them, I have to think that there is something about how the church is dealing with this population that, whether it be right or wrong or neither, it really isn't doing us or them any good.
I hear their anger and I think,"no wonder!" If I were them I'd be angry too. Because I sit on the inside and I don't think the church is a very friendly place for somebody who may have homosexual feelings, regardless of whether or not they choose that lifestyle.
I don't know how the right way to handle it is. I have my suspicions of what might be better. But I think the Church, or at least its members, have yet to handle it well.
My questions: What are we doing wrong? How do we help these people feel like church is a place where they too can belong? I mean this because I assume that we believe the LDS church is for all people who are willing to accept the gospel. And I say this because I think we alienate this group of people, as it appears to me, virtually across the board with few exceptions.
Really, I just wanted to get that out. Ahhh. I feel much better.
And now I deviate from my skirting of the issue. Why? Well, a few reasons. 1) I really would like to know how other people reconcile the issue. 2) I think it is such a LOUD issue at the moment and I would like the subject not to be so taboo for myself or other mormons. I would like to NOT be afraid to talk about it. 3) Not to mention, it could be a cool litmus test because even though I'm afraid to ask, I am incredibly curious to know what everybody thinks and how they deal with it, if they dare leave a comment.
I fear this topic because it makes waves. I fear this topic because people feel so strongly about it. I fear this topic because I know people whom I love very much stand very far from where I often find myself standing and I think they won't like me when they find out what I think. I fear this topic because I don't totally know what to do with it and I haven't resolved it all yet. I fear this topic because it is something I have had so many thoughts on that it may just be too big too put in a blog.
But I have battled this topic in my heart many times over. And it was, once again, repeatedly dangled in front of my unresolved heart, with an about-face, all this weekend. And I don't think it's going to go away.
Did anybody watch the Oscars last night? I was watching, admittedly, for the dresses. I don't think I saw any of the films that were nominated so I didn't have opinions about who should win(I haven't really had time to go out to the movies much this last year). But I was pleased to successfully get an eyeful of some GORGEOUS dresses. As the event when on, I noticed that I also got an earful of some gay rights activism. That, along with a few other reminders this weekend, spurred a conversation between my hubby and I.
Now, before I shock anyone who may not be aware, I am innately a moderately conservative person in my personal life choices. On the flipside of that, I am very free-loving and liberal, "with a live and let live" mentality in my more general views. It's just how I am. There are many genes I am missing. A few I've noticed: the gene that tells me to scream when I see a spider, the gene that tells me to coo at little babies and the gene that tells me to cringe when I see two people of the same sex kiss or hold hands. A lot of things don't phase me.
And so here we start. I am not innately appalled by homosexual behavior, as I know many people seem to be. It just doesn't come naturally to me and I could pretend to try to fit in with everyone, but that just makes me feel silly.
I say all of this so you can see from what context I come from and what my general approach is to things. I want to love everyone and get along with them, including homosexuals. I want to love them and I want them to love me. I am a people pleaser and a peace maker. However, this issue is not just about avoiding conflict for me. When pressed or compromised on something I feel is right or wrong, I will stand confidently in opposition to whoever.
It is more an issue with the classification of "gay" and then, once determining what it is, how you treat "gay". From my closest understanding of what LDS church leaders have said most recently in interviews with the media and other public statements about people who are gay, they don't deny that some people choose to be gay (which I think can be the case) nor do they deny that some people may innately have homosexual tendencies from more deep-rooted sources that do not constitute a decision but something more akin to a condition. The way they describe it makes me think of having some kind of handicap or disease, like down syndrome or missing an arm. It's more like a genetic mess-up. Then you have the homosexual community who says they are not a mess up. They are diversity. Just as there are different races among the human race there is different sexual orientation.
Innately, I find my heart much more willing to accept these people as diverse rather than messed up. And I really don't know for myself what the case is. This singular issue has been the cause of a divide between me and my religion widening and narrowing at various times, often influenced by how prevalent this ways on my mind and subsequently distances me from the church versus other parts of the gospel which I gain a stronger testimony of or know to be true which conversely buoy me closer.
Lately that divide has been smaller than ever. I have been excited about my testimony of the church. When I think of all the different ways my prayers have been answered , the blessings that have come from following church teachings, how my life has been looked over and how miracles have happened I can't help but be delighted to find myself the owner of my own personal testimony, stronger than I can every recall.
One thing that has since helped me reconcile the "gay" issue is that I really do believe the priesthood is inspired and the prophet is a prophet. So, before anything else, I believe I should have faith that what the brethren are telling me is true. I often hesitate when I think this thought because it's against my instincts. But I've been a life-long studier and practicer of the gospel and it's built up a lot of trust in me so far with how many times it's gotten things right. So, I'm taking a leap of faith on that. I, of course, also have a strong testimony in personal revelation. And while I have not yet received any enlightenment regarding this issue which I would consider conclusive, I believe that while I have faith in the brethren, it is something which I may also obtain my own personal testimony of. I don't have it yet, but I'm working on it.
So that's where I find myself on the issue of "what" is gay. But the issue doesn't stop there. You then go into how to deal with the issue of gay rights and gay family members and gay church members and the list goes on and on.
Back to the Oscars. Dustin Lance Black, the winner for "original screen play" for the movie, Milk, gave a very passionate acceptance speech, as he described how his mormon family had moved him from oppressive Utah to the haven of California and loved him. He went on to offer support and encouragement to homosexual individuals, telling them they are beautiful people with gifts and value and no less than anyone, even when religions and others tell them they are less. It sounded like he was trying to shame members of the LDS faith. And he clearly felt like he had been wronged. And I venture that he very well may have been wronged.
Having lived in Utah and seen the VW Beetles driving around with "a recovering mormon" bumper sticker with a rainbow next to it, worked amongst a lot of gay men who came from other mormon families who had abandoned the religion, often taking their families with them, I have to think that there is something about how the church is dealing with this population that, whether it be right or wrong or neither, it really isn't doing us or them any good.
I hear their anger and I think,"no wonder!" If I were them I'd be angry too. Because I sit on the inside and I don't think the church is a very friendly place for somebody who may have homosexual feelings, regardless of whether or not they choose that lifestyle.
I don't know how the right way to handle it is. I have my suspicions of what might be better. But I think the Church, or at least its members, have yet to handle it well.
My questions: What are we doing wrong? How do we help these people feel like church is a place where they too can belong? I mean this because I assume that we believe the LDS church is for all people who are willing to accept the gospel. And I say this because I think we alienate this group of people, as it appears to me, virtually across the board with few exceptions.
Really, I just wanted to get that out. Ahhh. I feel much better.
Thursday, February 19, 2009
FRUSTRATION!!!!
Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in. I am an easy adapter to change. Or so it seemed for the first 4+ months of this move into marriage and out to Ohio.
Okay, so there was the break down around the third month, when I felt this unrelenting disquiet and guilt because I hadn't found a job yet and now my new husband had to shoulder the burden of all of my financial responsibilities and I couldn't help. But I got over that soon enough. I guess it just comes to me in stages.
Merciful. Presently, I am just frustrated. I knew every step of the way when Ben and I were debating how we should approach this Ohio job offer versus the job he had in Salt Lake that we were doing the right thing. And when he called me to tell me he was taking the job, I didn't hesitate or question. I just called my boss in and told her that circumstances had changed and I had to give her notice (after 3 days on the job).
But doing the right thing doesn't make it easy. Now I find myself in Ohio, and on my 5th month. I have still not found a full-time job. I have been OFFERED a job. But I again didn't feel like I should take it. So I didn't. But I WANTED IT SO BAD.
And the dress business. WE have been on the cusp for so long, I am about to blow a cap. Really. It's even a large part of the reason I didn't feel like I could accept my other job offer. And it's not moving! If the lookbook doesn't get done soon, I'm just going to give up completely.
And then I share a car with Ben. I don't like this at all. As much as I like to see him, I really don't LIKE to drive him to and pick him up from work three times a day. It cuts up my day so I only have increments of time instead of a whole day. And I never know when he'll be done with work, so I just play the waiting game 5 nights a week to see when I need to come get him.
I do not to do well with this schedule that is mine but not mine, no big projects that are moving, stuck at a standstill in every direction and with no book club, scrabble nights or family get-togethers to distract me.
I got frustrated enough that Ben offered me a bribe yesterday. He told me I deserved to go shopping since I haven't been shopping since we moved here. Well, who can say not to that, right? Apparently I can. I had to confess that nothing I want right now is something I can buy. A sad realization. And even if I got a new black handbag, where would I wear it?
I have to remember,however, how I got this offer. I'm sure I could use it in the future. :)
Okay, so there was the break down around the third month, when I felt this unrelenting disquiet and guilt because I hadn't found a job yet and now my new husband had to shoulder the burden of all of my financial responsibilities and I couldn't help. But I got over that soon enough. I guess it just comes to me in stages.
Merciful. Presently, I am just frustrated. I knew every step of the way when Ben and I were debating how we should approach this Ohio job offer versus the job he had in Salt Lake that we were doing the right thing. And when he called me to tell me he was taking the job, I didn't hesitate or question. I just called my boss in and told her that circumstances had changed and I had to give her notice (after 3 days on the job).
But doing the right thing doesn't make it easy. Now I find myself in Ohio, and on my 5th month. I have still not found a full-time job. I have been OFFERED a job. But I again didn't feel like I should take it. So I didn't. But I WANTED IT SO BAD.
And the dress business. WE have been on the cusp for so long, I am about to blow a cap. Really. It's even a large part of the reason I didn't feel like I could accept my other job offer. And it's not moving! If the lookbook doesn't get done soon, I'm just going to give up completely.
And then I share a car with Ben. I don't like this at all. As much as I like to see him, I really don't LIKE to drive him to and pick him up from work three times a day. It cuts up my day so I only have increments of time instead of a whole day. And I never know when he'll be done with work, so I just play the waiting game 5 nights a week to see when I need to come get him.
I do not to do well with this schedule that is mine but not mine, no big projects that are moving, stuck at a standstill in every direction and with no book club, scrabble nights or family get-togethers to distract me.
I got frustrated enough that Ben offered me a bribe yesterday. He told me I deserved to go shopping since I haven't been shopping since we moved here. Well, who can say not to that, right? Apparently I can. I had to confess that nothing I want right now is something I can buy. A sad realization. And even if I got a new black handbag, where would I wear it?
I have to remember,however, how I got this offer. I'm sure I could use it in the future. :)
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
Reaching My Full Potential
I have a mind full of great ideas. And I have a wish to do almost everything. I would like to be fluent in French, live in a foreign country for a while, have my own successful business, have a political career, have a dog, have children, get back into theater, travel to Africa every year for a month or so and do humanitarian work, bake goodies for people, train for and do triathlons, read a lot of books, go dancing with my husband, play the guitar more often, get into gardening. The only problem is all of these things take time. I mean, seriously! When am I going to do all that?! Well, I do know that, though I may still dream about doing all that, I will probably not get it ALL done within the next two years. It may take me a little longer.
Dreams seem to take a lot of time, work, preparation.... at least so I've thought. Turns out I was wrong. At least not ALL dreams take a long time. Last week was our Relief Society enrichment night -- they provided us with dinner and we provided a variety show of talents, randomness and, well, a bit of silliness really. At this talent show I became a world champion. An amazing talent. I became the world's first, only and greatest "clog-a-hooper". I also invented a sport. That's right. You read that right. I clog-a-hoop. Ok, not that I do it often. Really, I did it that afternoon just to make sure I could and then I followed that up with doing it for the audience that evening and I haven't really tried it out since. It was a fleeting career.
Nonetheless I felt proud. A small side story to this little ditty -- earlier that day I had gone visiting teaching and had been giving the lesson. We got on some kind of a tangent and I was talking to them about how I often tell people that I don't drink because I really just don't need to. I'm already a rip roaring good time sober and me drinking could be, well, quite scandalous and probably illegal. This sister made an appearance at the talent show and saw my number. After the show, this very mild-mannered sister came up to me and had a piece of advice/warning for me -- "You're right, Sharon. You should never drink."
It's that obvious, is it? Right. Well, good to know I'm not alone in that opinion.
Dreams seem to take a lot of time, work, preparation.... at least so I've thought. Turns out I was wrong. At least not ALL dreams take a long time. Last week was our Relief Society enrichment night -- they provided us with dinner and we provided a variety show of talents, randomness and, well, a bit of silliness really. At this talent show I became a world champion. An amazing talent. I became the world's first, only and greatest "clog-a-hooper". I also invented a sport. That's right. You read that right. I clog-a-hoop. Ok, not that I do it often. Really, I did it that afternoon just to make sure I could and then I followed that up with doing it for the audience that evening and I haven't really tried it out since. It was a fleeting career.
Nonetheless I felt proud. A small side story to this little ditty -- earlier that day I had gone visiting teaching and had been giving the lesson. We got on some kind of a tangent and I was talking to them about how I often tell people that I don't drink because I really just don't need to. I'm already a rip roaring good time sober and me drinking could be, well, quite scandalous and probably illegal. This sister made an appearance at the talent show and saw my number. After the show, this very mild-mannered sister came up to me and had a piece of advice/warning for me -- "You're right, Sharon. You should never drink."
It's that obvious, is it? Right. Well, good to know I'm not alone in that opinion.
Sunday, February 1, 2009
To believe or To not believe....the audacity of it all!
So, I went to church today.....shocker shocker. Yes, I know it isn't really that much of a shocker.
Anyways, I had a rather interesting conversation with a teacher o' mine about Atheism and Believers. Now prior to entering into a diatribe on the discussion, a few definitions of religiosity will be primarily divulged for the purposes of this conversation. If you don't like my definitions, well, take it up in the comments.
1. Believer - someone who believes in the existence of an almighty being, or superior power (we won't get into, in this post what that superior power is, or who that superior power is.)
2. Knowers - someone who professes to "Know" or have a surety of knowledge of a supreme being, superior power, etc.
3. Agnostic - someone who does not know whether or not there is a superior power, but also does not think that someone can know, or at minimum that they cannot know.
4. Atheist - someone who professes to "Know" or have a surety of knowledge that there is no such thing as a supreme being.
So, with that being said (and mind you, these are crude defintions) I'll launch into the philosophical discussion and how I have come to believe that Atheists, based purely on philosophical reasoning, are completely pompous and arrogant a**es!
So, I would say that the majority of people that read this blog are Believers, and maybe there are a few Knowers, and possibly we have an agnostic or two in the mix....that is if Sharona reads this blog (just kidding). Anyways, the premise is on that a believer, believes that something exists, but does not have a sure knowledge one way or the other, and the flip is an agnostic.....most people are ok with that in some way shape or form. Then there are the extremes, the Knowers and the Atheists. now, to know something exists, is to have a relatively specific knowledge of a certain person, place, or thing. For instance, I know (well, I won't get into what to know is and is not, but for these purposes, it is to have a surety of knowledge as is physically possible, leaving wiggle room for the very fact that we are all human and our knowledge is limited)....I digress....I know that I am in my bed typing on a laptop at 12:56am on a Sunday night, which was a fast sunday, and whereby I attended sacrament meeting. Some Knowers claim to know the supreme being with the same amount of surety as I have that I went to church. Now, becuase I do not know all things and because I am inclined to believe them, I therefore believe that it is possible.
Now take the role of the Atheist. Not only do they not believe that Knowers "know" what they claim to have knowledge of, but also that Believers are also vastly mislead in their delusional adherence to illogical bemusements of a flacid intellect. Moreover, they believe that they know that there is no supreme being. Now to believe a finite thing, is to claim to have a limited knowledge or belief, as in a belief that there is a supreme being. But to claim that none exists, how can one claim that none exists, save one is all knowing, and that one knows all things and comprehends all things to such an extent that there is no supreme being.
I can tolerate the non-believer, and I can tolerate the believer. I can even tolerate the aethist to a certain degree....but that doesn't change the fact that the Aetheist must claim to know more than I believe it is possible to know. I can handle that someone claims they do not believe in a supreme being...but to be able to claim that one does not exist and cannot exist, depends on someone having the knowledge that they understand all things enough to know there is nothing else.
In other words, it is far more presumptious to claim that something does not exist than to claim that something does exist, or you believe it does exist...for to believe that something does exist one must simply have an inkling of knowledge or a sign of existence in one direction or the other.
Similarly to believe that something does not exist, one must simply have an inkling of knowledge or a sign of non-existence.
Moreover to know that somehting exists, one must simply konw of a surety of a small fact....that there is a supreme being.
However, for one to claim to know that something does not exist, one must be prepared and have the knowledge that there is no feasible way for a supreme being to exist. That they must have searched through all the canals of knowledge and depths of contemplation to know that there is nothing there, for they cannot find it in any place whereby they look to prove its existence.
Anyways, that was a tangent in Sunday School, which all that know me, know I thorougly enjoyed it.
Ciao!
Anyways, I had a rather interesting conversation with a teacher o' mine about Atheism and Believers. Now prior to entering into a diatribe on the discussion, a few definitions of religiosity will be primarily divulged for the purposes of this conversation. If you don't like my definitions, well, take it up in the comments.
1. Believer - someone who believes in the existence of an almighty being, or superior power (we won't get into, in this post what that superior power is, or who that superior power is.)
2. Knowers - someone who professes to "Know" or have a surety of knowledge of a supreme being, superior power, etc.
3. Agnostic - someone who does not know whether or not there is a superior power, but also does not think that someone can know, or at minimum that they cannot know.
4. Atheist - someone who professes to "Know" or have a surety of knowledge that there is no such thing as a supreme being.
So, with that being said (and mind you, these are crude defintions) I'll launch into the philosophical discussion and how I have come to believe that Atheists, based purely on philosophical reasoning, are completely pompous and arrogant a**es!
So, I would say that the majority of people that read this blog are Believers, and maybe there are a few Knowers, and possibly we have an agnostic or two in the mix....that is if Sharona reads this blog (just kidding). Anyways, the premise is on that a believer, believes that something exists, but does not have a sure knowledge one way or the other, and the flip is an agnostic.....most people are ok with that in some way shape or form. Then there are the extremes, the Knowers and the Atheists. now, to know something exists, is to have a relatively specific knowledge of a certain person, place, or thing. For instance, I know (well, I won't get into what to know is and is not, but for these purposes, it is to have a surety of knowledge as is physically possible, leaving wiggle room for the very fact that we are all human and our knowledge is limited)....I digress....I know that I am in my bed typing on a laptop at 12:56am on a Sunday night, which was a fast sunday, and whereby I attended sacrament meeting. Some Knowers claim to know the supreme being with the same amount of surety as I have that I went to church. Now, becuase I do not know all things and because I am inclined to believe them, I therefore believe that it is possible.
Now take the role of the Atheist. Not only do they not believe that Knowers "know" what they claim to have knowledge of, but also that Believers are also vastly mislead in their delusional adherence to illogical bemusements of a flacid intellect. Moreover, they believe that they know that there is no supreme being. Now to believe a finite thing, is to claim to have a limited knowledge or belief, as in a belief that there is a supreme being. But to claim that none exists, how can one claim that none exists, save one is all knowing, and that one knows all things and comprehends all things to such an extent that there is no supreme being.
I can tolerate the non-believer, and I can tolerate the believer. I can even tolerate the aethist to a certain degree....but that doesn't change the fact that the Aetheist must claim to know more than I believe it is possible to know. I can handle that someone claims they do not believe in a supreme being...but to be able to claim that one does not exist and cannot exist, depends on someone having the knowledge that they understand all things enough to know there is nothing else.
In other words, it is far more presumptious to claim that something does not exist than to claim that something does exist, or you believe it does exist...for to believe that something does exist one must simply have an inkling of knowledge or a sign of existence in one direction or the other.
Similarly to believe that something does not exist, one must simply have an inkling of knowledge or a sign of non-existence.
Moreover to know that somehting exists, one must simply konw of a surety of a small fact....that there is a supreme being.
However, for one to claim to know that something does not exist, one must be prepared and have the knowledge that there is no feasible way for a supreme being to exist. That they must have searched through all the canals of knowledge and depths of contemplation to know that there is nothing there, for they cannot find it in any place whereby they look to prove its existence.
Anyways, that was a tangent in Sunday School, which all that know me, know I thorougly enjoyed it.
Ciao!
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)